Bootstrapping in Saigon

Hey Hacker News,

What a nice surprise to see this oldie pop up.

I'm Jon Myers, the guy who wrote the article. Nice to meet you all.

Hard to believe, I wrote that article over 2 years ago. Some things were a bit naive, I need to update it.

I've planted roots now in Saigon and am here for the near future.

I told my friend the other day, Saigon is like an onion wrapped around a sweet lychee.

Initially a bit harsh on the eyes, makes the eyes water and then, once you get past the layers, you're rewarded with a sweet surprise inside.

A lot has changed since I wrote that article.

In my opinion, for the better.

The biggest, most visible change - construction has begun on the city's massive above and underground metro system.

It's a huge, ambitious project, designed and financed by the Japanese.

Sure, it will have delays in construction, but it will get there.

It's hard to imagine how this project will change the culture and dynamics of this city.

However, I can and have a bit of perspective on this matter.

I started my mobile entrepreneurial journey over 20 years ago (I know, dating myself) in Taipei, Taiwan.

I lived there for a year, and at that time, Taipei felt a lot like Saigon now. Ugly duckling, underrated motorbike dominated city.

Oddly, Taiwan's gross GDP then was similar to that of Vietnam's now - in the 175 billion range. Yet, Vietnam has a lot more people.

And, back then they were hard at work building Taipei's metro system.

Contrasting the Taipei of then and now, it's hard to overstate the impact of the metro system on that city.

Similarly, I believe Saigon will undergo a similar transformation on a much larger scale.

Aside from the metro system in Saigon, I've witnessed yet more, massive construction projects and change.

Yes, of course, there is speculation as well.

The other, most notable change in Saigon - the network and quality of people has grown significantly.

Some stay, some stay for awhile, build and have to move on, and others just pass through.

A few people come to mind who have had large successes. A friend was base here last year, hunkered down on his business, and had to move back to the U.S.

His business is now doing 7 figures in gross annual revenue.

I've seen others get similar lifts in their businesses who have based themselves here. It's the power of the network.

In some ways, everyday is like Shark Tank. We help each other, we critique, push and challenge each other.

The actual startup scene is maturing.

Personally, my pool of opportunities has widened since I've been here. I'm working with a venture capital firm here and helping them launch a new bank.

On the downsides.

Yes, costs have gone up since I've written that article.

I think too often those in this movement or toying with it become too fixated on "cheap".

If you're fixated on "cheap" or "cheapest", Saigon is not for you.

The focus should be on value.

If you want high value and an adult urban lifestyle while you're working and building your business, Saigon is still an incredible value.

Additionally, there are things of intangible value one must consider. Particularly, connections and the breakthroughs from those connections.

My expenses have risen considerably since I've written that article, but that is a personal choice I'm ok with.

I'm now married to a local (couldn't be happier) and am in the enclave of District 2. We have a beautiful, 3 story modern home, designed by a well known local architect, my design studio occupies the top floor, and the cost of monthly rental is a steal for the quality.

Yes, the visa situation has changed, and is in flux, however, it still trumps a place like Thailand by a long shot.

My friends here who are here for a longer stretch all have gotten 1 year multiple entry business visas for $700.

None have been denied.

You pay, you get the letter in a week, you have to pop over to an embassy outside Vietnam, for example in Cambodia to pick it up.

That's a bargain when you consider all the visa run hassles, hoops and what not in a place like Thailand.

For shorter term stays, it's still easy to get a 3 month multiple entry visa. You just can't renew in country like before or if you do, it might be costly.

I'm married, so I have a 5 year resident visa. That cost $75usd...

I really need to update that article.

Thanks.

If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me.

If you're in Saigon, please hit me up.

Cheers!

I'm living in Saigon and I've been living here as a "digital nomad" for the last five years.

The visa situation kind of sucks because it's a constantly moving target, though to be fair everything here is a moving target law wise. The government here can't make up their mind about anything.

He's right that the basics of living here are cheaper, but some things are ridiculously more expensive. And the longer you live here, the more that becomes apparent. My living expenses are around $3,000 a month, but I also have a baby and a wife. I live in a relatively high rent district (district 7) in a huge apartment.

I would disagree that street food is safe to eat. I've gotten parasites three times so far, food poisoning too many times to count. I can't remember the last time I had a solid bowel movement despite the relatively high fiber diet I have.

I worked out of a cafe for the first year, but couldn't imagine doing it now.

The traffic is amusing the first year or two, then it just becomes a pain in the ass. I don't drive a motorbike anymore because I have a kid.

Vietnamese culture will wear you down though, despite your best intentions to respect it. There are just some aspects that aren't worth respect, just like there are aspects of every other culture not worthy of it. But I think that only happens to people who stay here long term.

That is a very informative post! However, if you are willing to spend $900-$1000 per month on housing, you can technically look at almost every Asian city (perhaps not the very center of the city, but a decent neighborhood). Because $1000 is indeed a lot of money for accommodation when compared to the standard of living in most of the world. I live in Seattle and pay $1500 for 2BR2BA apartment that I share with a roommate in a nice neighborhood (not Capitol Hill - that place is going out of the roof!)

I am from India and I worked in Bengaluru and Delhi before this. I used to pay about ~$500 for a studio 3 years ago. In Bengaluru, you now have tremendous access to Venture Capital (including the Silicon Valley names like Sequoia), great incubators, work spaces, and a lot of talent and IT type crowd. English is no-problem.

On the negative, you must be willing to spend inordinate amounts of time in traffic - you can own bikes just like in Saigon, but the roads have potholes :-D - breathe polluted air, potentially fall sick because of poor hygiene and eating outside food.

I'm a US citizen who runs a digital agency and lived in Hanoi for a year in 2013-14. When I visited Saigon, I couldn't believe how much of a shit show it was. Whereas Hanoi had the occasional "westerner" who tried his/her hardest to integrate with the Vietnamese culture, Saigon was full of loud, disrespectful foreigners who were just looking to work abroad (illegally) and bum off of the culture and cheap prices.

If you want a real taste of Vietnamese culture, I'd recommend travelling elsewhere. And if you do decide to bootstrap in SE Asia, try to respect/understand the unique environment you will be living in.

for those that lived in Southeast Asia, how does Vietnam stack up to other places?

Obvious attraction is the cheap cost of living. However, one does wonder if this comes with some sort of catch.

Would East Asian countries like China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan be any different or is it worth paying more to live in those countries instead of South East Asia?

I guess best thing is to try it out, but would be great if we could have a pros and cons comparison of Asia for bootstrappers/remote workers.

Hell I'd go to Eastern Europe if it was cheap and safe place to work and live, but Asia seems to be the more popular choice.